Acct
offlineMember
I've been thinking of possibly teaching on the college level and have been toying with the idea of getting a PhD in Accounting...Just curious if anyone has gotten one/plans on getting one and why...Or knows anything about teaching Accounting, or getting a PhD in it...
Thanks!
MOMCPA2B
offlineMember
I have thought about the same thing myself. I plan on returning to school in the fall for my MBA. I know in CA the PhD programs are mostly in education but I am not sure if you pic a concentration.
Acct
offlineMember
I'm currently going for an M.S. in Taxation but I see that the school I'm in also has a PhD program with concentrations in a few areas, including Accounting. There are also other schools nearby that offer PhD programs...
I thought a Master's might be enough to teach on the college level, but I was recently told that (maybe except for adjunct) this is generally not the case...
MOMCPA2B
offlineMember
Well does it really matter to you? I will tell you that some of my most interesting college courses were taught by adjunct professors because they are not that far removed from everyday life. Many of them had jobs and taught as a way to give back to a profession that they love. My tax professor is a great example. I absolutely love love love her. I meet up with her from time to time. She is working on getting her PhD but I do not hold her in any less regard. Maybe you could teach as an adjunct and see if this is what you really want and maybe it will be just as satisfying. If however those three letters make you all warm and fuzzy inside I say go for it. Its a committment because PhD is research based but you do what makes you happy. GO FOR IT.
Acct
offlineMember
Your post made me laugh :) I honestly don't care about those three letters.... Anything after THE three most important letters (CPA) don't count...just kidding. I'm not into the whole title/letters thing.
I don't really want to get a PhD if I don't have to...But I want to try to do what will be best in the long run.
I have to do some more research on this and think about it some more. Thanks for your advice.
makinthemagic
offlineMember
I looked at phd programs as I was curious about it. I read some thesis' and they were on such boring topic, even boring by accounting standards. I couldn't imagine wasting the next 4+ years of my life on something that dry. $how me the money in the private sector please.
mla1169
onlineMember
Nope, my family has threatened to leave me if I even toy with the idea of going back to school.
But MAYBE in 6 years when my youngest finishes high school........
I am however planning on teaching a few community college classes to help pay the mammouth student loans I've accumulated over the last 8 years.....
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
I would like to be a professor one day as well and possibly the Dean of a business school.
So,yep, I am seriously thinking about it. But I am only considering programs that offer distance learning. I can't quit my job and be a full time student, so online/part time is really my only option. I've found that these types of programs are pretty hard to come by...
My dilemma is that most universities/colleges prefer that your PhD come from an AACSB accredited program. Currently they do not offer ANY online. However there are a couple programs that cater to the working adult, so I am looking into those very seriously. I will not consider any programs that are not accredited by a real organization though. Univeristy of Phoenix and so forth are out of the question because I just dont think the colleges would take those seriously.
I had a very serious talk with one of my former professors about the pros and cons of getting my PhD in accounting. There are very valid pros and cons to consider so I have not yet made my final decision but I am definitely leaning towards the degree.
Tootsie
offlineMember
@Acct Great thread! I was thinking about going back to school in the future (maybe 5+ years) to get my Ph.D. in Accounting. My dad is an educator, my husband is a Ph.D. student, my father-in-law has a Ph.D., so I feel like they have rubbed off on me in a way. I love learning and might like teaching, I think. It's a scary thought and very challenging, but after getting the CPA and experience in public accounting, I should be ready to tackle the Ph.D. Hope you pursue this. Accounting professors are in demand in the US.
Acct
offlineMember
@makinthemagic
:)
@mla1169
What kind of education level is required to teach in the community college? I was looking into local community colleges a while ago and I think they only required a Bachelor's degree for certain adjunct positions...Maybe I should try that out...
mla1169
onlineMember
Some only want a bachlelors some want a masters (probably depends on whether you're teaching a 100 level vs a 300 level) but the job at the community college I just applied for wanted a masters.
Mind you very few of my professors at SNHU had a PHD. Then again I did all my classes online and maybe they are a different "crowd" than the on campus professors.
Acct
offlineMember
@OnMyWayToCPA
Online sounds like a good idea...it's too bad there isn't a PhD AACSB accredited program online yet...
I should really discuss this with my professors. My current professors have JDs and LLMs...maybe they can give me advice on PhDs...
@Tootsie
My father's also a professor...
I would love to teach. I taught in a high school for a short while and really enjoyed it. I was teaching maybe 20-25 periods a week and it was great! So I'm hoping to combine teaching and accounting to teaching accounting...
Someone also told me recently that there's a shortage of accounting professors in the U.S..
cpamust
offlineMember
@Acct
Thank you so much for starting this thread.
I am so confused about what I am going to do after my CPA. I think I have an interest in taxation, anyway not deciding until I complete at least the REG part of the CPA. But, my friends said that CPA and MBA combination is good. I have an interest in teaching and I do not have a master's degree. Also, can anyone teach without masters degree? How many years PhD in accounting?
Can you please tell me why you choose taxation? I am hoping that will give me some insights.
Thank you all in advance!
valueofnothing
offlineMember
dear everyone
if you're trying to get a PHD from the university of phoenix (or any online program), youre pathetic.
two options:
get phd for real (quit job, study full time, youre learning for free and you get a stipend since you'll be teaching too)
stop dreaming.
this board is full of so many people with cokedreams of amazing things and the most pathetic hopes of achieving them. theres no such thing as a free lunch... whether its b4, phd, your own bookkeeping practice, etc... youll get there if you hustle. but if you want it to come easily, keep dreaming.
Acct
offlineMember
@mla1169
What's you Master's in?
@cpamust
A couple of people I know who are going for an MBA (and I think trying to become CPAs) told me that they're probably going to end up going for M.S. in Taxation anyhow...
I could be totally wrong about this, but months ago I was checking out job openings at local community colleges and I think it may it have said that for certain adjunct positions only a Bachelor's degree is required. The problem is, what happens when someone with a Bachelor's degree and someone with a Master's degree are up for the same job? All else being equal, I would assume the one with the Master's would get the job, no?
Two programs that I checked out so far each have a 4 year PhD in Accounting program.
I chose taxation for several reasons, I'll try to put a few down here. When I was thinking of applying to the grad school I'm in, I noticed they offer several M.S. programs including Taxation. At that point I had around 2 years experience in the tax field and knew I liked it. Taxation interested me. I also heard that an M.S. in Tax can help salary-wise if one works in a large company like a Big 4 firm. I was advised not to get a Master's in Accounting since I have a Bachelor's in Accounting and to try for something else. Also, I knew that I was thinking of possibly teaching on the college level and I wanted to get a Master's in something that will enable be to have more options. Since I already have a degree in Accounting, I figured an M.S. in Tax could only be beneficial...
cpamust
offlineMember
@Acct
Thank you so much for your response.
I agree with you totally. In the long run, master's degree with CPA would serve better than bachelor's degree with CPA. right? Anyway, since I have a Bachelor's in accounting I was not interested in doing accounting as my masters. I was mostly interested in MBA with finance or masters degree in taxation.
I am glad you have two years experience in the tax field and you are doing master's in taxation. I think, that is a wise decision. Probably, I will do the same, I will try to get a job in tax field and see how do I like it before I do my masters. Thanks.
Good Luck!!!
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
I have to respectfully disagree with @valueofnothing...
The main problem I have with not working while I'm getting a PhD is reducing my earning potential versus someone who remains in the workforce. By the time I'm done with my PhD, my co-horts will have 4 to 5 years of experience over me and will be making much more money. I had this conversation with a very well respected accounting professor who has countless years of experience in the accounting profession and no doubt knows what he is talking about (he has even written some AICPA pronouncements, I mean come on...)
There are very respected PhD programs that don't require a full time committment. I know this because I've done my research.
Do me a favor and google: Kansas State University PhD online; Oklahoma State University Executive PhD
Both of these are respected degree programs that "enable candidates across the world to earn their doctorate from a respected university while continuing their lives at home."
So I respect those who quit their jobs to go back to school, but I've always been the type that likes to make my own way. I got my Master's degree last year when I was 23, because I worked full time while taking 12 Masters credit hours a semester. So for anyone to tell me that I can't get my PhD and still work is just wrong. But it's fine, the proof will be undeniable once I do it........
mla1169
onlineMember
Valueofnothing,
Not all online degrees are from Univ of Phoenix et al. Many respected colleges offer degree programs online. I have received my bachelor's degree from Southern New Hampshire University by taking online classes only, and have just completed my masters degree doing the same. There is no indication on my degree or otherwise of where I attended classes. Could have taken them at the Manchester campus (well respected) or the Salem NH campus. Who cares? I guarantee no student in the history of education worked harder for their degree than I did simply because they sat in front of the professors.
There was no pipedream, I had to balance education with being a great parent and that meant being home with my kids after work so they could do their extracurriculars, so I could help with homework, and so I could sacrifice sleep for education.
If you think taking online classes even at a phd level is an "easy" to do it, you are mistaken.
@ acct, my masters is in Accounting and Finance.
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
Totally agree with mla !!
There is a negative stigma attached to online degree programs but a lot of it is unwarranted or misguided.
It's pretty easy to give up work or family to go to school. It's much harder to balance both. Online degree programs make it possible for that balance, but that doesn't mean they make it easy.....
Minimorty
offlineMember
OK - So just to play devil's advocate, these are some of the things that come to mind when I hear online degree:
1. Easier to cheat.
2. Easier to cut corners by not attending "class" and just studying for however long it takes you to pass the tests.
3. Less in-person interaction with peers. Maybe I am misguided, but I thought a big learning objective of a Masters program (especially in Business, Finance, Accounting) is the in-person interaction with peers, working as a team, etc.
4. Easier.
Perhaps as we get further along in the 21st century, distance learning will become a lot more prevalent. For now, though, there has got to be a reason that very few of the top schools (are there any?) offer online masters degrees.
mla1169
onlineMember
Mini they more than compensate for the "easier to cheat" factor. Along with technology comes greater ability to police for plaigirism, etc. Yeah I suppose I could have tied a genius to my chair and forced them to take my exams on my behalf and nobody would be the wiser.
That said online students generally spend MORE time working on classwork than classroom students. And as far as the interaction goes, there is far more of it than in a one night a week class. For example there are discussion boards and you must participate 4 days a week (never once did that in a classroom!) and your discussion points each had to be a set length (250 words, etc). There is a definate time commitment. And the classes generally cover more information.
The whole arguement about online being easier is exactly like someone who took the CPA exam 10 years ago telling us how much easier we have it these days, computerized and can spread it out instead of taking all 4 sections in 2 days. The exam compensates for it by covering so much more information. Its different but I would never say or imply easier.
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
My responses to the devil's advocate: =)
1. Yes (can't think of any way to mitigate this...) (Devil's Advocate 1) (Online Programs 0)
2. So it's easier to teach yourself than to have a professional teach the topic to you??? I don't agree... (DA 1 OP 1)
3. Yes. (DA 2 OP 1) Although the programs I am looking at (PhD) require face to face interaction either 4 times per month or for 10 days each summer.
4. False. One of the hardest courses I have ever taken was an online Finance class. My on-campus Finance class? A breeze. So that's just a rash generalization. (DA 2 OP 2)
Final Score: 2 - 2 ?
Minimorty
offlineMember
@OnMyWay - So for number 2, this is what I was thinking: An in-class program requires you to be in the classroom X amount of hours. In an online program, you may be able to pass the exam spending less than X amount of hours working through the material. So your response is, "Well, if I am able to spend less time preparing, but still pass the exam, that is all that matters." I partially agree with that, but I partially disagree. I think there is some intangible value associated with being in front of a professor, next to your peers, and learning the material. In an in-class setting, people raise their hands and ask questions and talk about real world situations. While online classes may have discussion boards, it is just not the same as being in class. Again, there is a reason that there are not a lot of top universities offering online programs and there is a reason that employers generally prefer someone who graduates from an in-class university as opposed to an online university. Do you think this is just because of misinformation and not understanding the rigors of an online program or do you think there are some legitimate concerns about online degrees?
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
Well , I definitely agree that there is an intangible value in being in front of a professor, and that is something that (may or may not be) sacrificed when taking an online class. Your professor can be present or absent while in class or online.
I've been in many classrooms where the professor may as well had been in Timbuktu for all the interaction we had. And peer interaction was not even encouraged.
On the other hand I've been in online courses with the mandatory discussions that mla talks about and the professor was very active in participating with us. For those of us who were taking the discussions seriously, we got into very intense debates and learned a lot.
So I think that there is a misconception both ways.
That all campus courses have this great interaction is a misconception and that all online courses are secluded and you are a one person classroom is a misconception as well.
mla1169
onlineMember
I'll tell you what, you just haven't lived until you've had the "pleasure" of doing group projects online LOL!! There ought to be an award for surviving them....
valueofnothing
offlineMember
im happy to let my beef with this die, but a couple quick things
@mla to each his own, but when i was at my graduation at penn state and they "honored" world campus people, i was insulted. in my opinion, it's a travesty that our degrees are identical, because the experience (and probably the education quality) is certainly not.
@onmyway when you tell me to google a "well-known" program, that proves it's not well known. Granted, i'm not in the market for an accounting phd and really don't know the great schools, but in general, anyone knows what wharton/kellogg/stern/etc is... that's well-known.
ive taken online classes (to get to 150) and while I definitely learned things, it was nowhere near the total education package of classroom learning. its fine that our opinions differ and i'm sure you've done your research, but i know that if/when i'm doing recruiting (and if we even are considering candidates with online degrees), they will be at a disadvantage compared to ones that went to real programs (mla's degree would probably fool me, though). I'm not saying that that's fair or correct, but it's an opinion that i've developed and one that many other people have too.
PhDCPA
offlineMember
I'm just finishing up my first semester as an accounting Ph.D. student at a top 30 ranked school and I'm really happy with my decision to go back to school after spending some time in public accounting.
Getting a Ph.D. is a VERY tough decision to make. You have to be willing to spend the next 4 years of your life working like it's busy season all year long while getting paid a stipend of 20-30 thousand dollars, depending on what school you go to. There is a huge payoff when it's all over though because accounting Ph.D.s are starting at about $140,000 / year.
A website that has a ton of great information is http://www.urch.com, they have a business Ph.D. forum there that is extremely helpful for anyone considering a Ph.D.
PhDCPA
offlineMember
Sure does! It depends on what school you go to after graduation. If you go to a teaching school, which pay the lowest, you can expect to start at about $110-120 thousand, but if you go to a research school you are looking at a lot more. The starting salary for the professors at my school is over $150,000. People underestimate how much work is involved in being a professor, they only see that they have a couple of classes a semester to teach and then office hours, but most of a professor's time goes towards research.
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
@ valueofnothing, agreed that this topic can die =)
Just want to cosign with mIa that my degree will not indicate whether I attended live or online classes. It will only say:
Kansas State University
Oklahoma State Univerity
University of Oklahoma etc.....
Which may not be "well-known" or nationally renowned but neither are 70-80%(or maybe higher?) of the colleges that every person on this forum has attended.
For the most part, when choosing which college to attend, we just pick one of the 5 or 6 universities in our state of residence. I'm not going to uproot myself just to get a degree at a school with a fancy name...
mla1169
onlineMember
Value in a way I know what you mean, there was a good reason why I chose not to "be a phoenix" (no disrespect to those who do) and go to somewhat local school that happened to offer online courses.
And I know that personal preferences play a big role in recruiting as you've been so open with your own. That said, if I had to choose between some snot nosed kid whose mommy & daddy supported them so they could party 6 nights a week while receiving supposedly superior education or someone who chose to put themselves through school later in life as a single parent and who managed to balance education, family, and a full time job...give me the person who can prioritize and is a true go getter any day.
[My snarky point is, education is what you make of it yourself.....not necessarily what is offered to you. I know plenty of folks who attended highly prestigeous univesities and got top quality educations, but barely made it out and got no tangible skill set except binge drinking. LOL.
PhDCPA
offlineMember
Acct - you technically do not need a masters degree to get into a Ph.D. in Accounting program, but given how competitive it is right now it is basically required to get admitted. Keep in mind that each program only accepts about 2 to 3 students a year and I've heard that it is much more competitive now than in previous years. Ridiculously enough, if you are interested in getting a Ph.D. in Accounting and you know for sure that is what you want to do then getting a master's degree in accounting may not be the best route (my masters degree is in accounting by the way). A masters degree in statistics, mathematics, or economics may be more beneficial because of the intense quantitative nature of accounting Ph.D. programs. However, if you do decide to get a master's degree in accounting while knowing that you are going to go the Ph.D. route afterwards, you should definitely look into taking some math classes while you're in school anyway, most programs want you to have at least had Calc II and linear algebra before starting.
Acct
offlineMember
@PhDCPA
I began going for an M.S. in Taxation this Fall. I wasn't even considering a PhD until someone mentioned it to me a few days ago, and I still don't know how seriously I'm considering it. I see that the school I'm in has a PhD in Accounting program and it doesn't seem that a Master's degree is required, which is why I was asking about it...I had always thought that it went Bachelor's, then Master's, then Doctorate...
Thank you for the information. I'm going to try to speak to some of my professors, as well, and see what they can tell me about the local PhD programs.
mla1169
onlineMember
PhDCPA, I don't think I am likely to ever consider a PhD (although not long ago I didn't think I was likely to even get an associates degree LOL) but do you have to get published in an Accounting PhD program like you would in say a PhD of sociology?
PhDCPA
offlineMember
@acct: accounting professors do research to answer questions that are interesting and unresolved in the field in order to get their work published in scholarly journals. If you are interested in a Ph.D. you must be very interested in conducting research because that is exclusivley what Ph.D. programs teach, you don't learn about how to teach in a Ph.D. program. An example of a research question might be "Does a longer auditor/client relationship lead to lower earnings quality?" or "Do managers use accounting accruals to manipulate reported earnings in order to maximize their compensation?"
@mla: you don't need to get published while you are actually in your program, there are practical difficulties in getting published before graduating because it usually takes about 3-4 years to turn an idea into a publication. You do have to write a dissertation and possibly another paper depending on your program (both of which you would hope to eventually get published). After the program, you will need to publish in order to get tenure at a university, though publishing requirements to get tenure can be very tough or pretty easy depending on what school you go to after graduation.
Acct
offlineMember
@PhDCPA
Sounds interesting. I'm not sure how seriously I am considering going for a PhD, but thank you for answering my questions! I'm beginning to understand more of what it entails...
OnMyWayToCPA
offlineMember
I wondered the same thing... Glad I still had both windows open on my Internet Explorer.
One site was http://www.adsphd.org/
One other was http://www.phdproject.org/index.asp
The other was an article I didnt read.
Dont know why the post disappeared. But if anyone wants these links better save them now just in case! =P
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