BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
Hello all. I will be finishing up with my Bachelors (Accounting) soon and will be entering a Masters program to fulfill the 150 credit hour requirement to sit for the CPA exam. However, my school offers two Accounting related Masters Programs. Accounting and Forensic Accounting.
Any thoughts on which I should go far?
aalkukhun
offlineMember
I'd say get an MBA.. ... you had enough accounting courses ... I'm graduating from a masters in accounting program now and ... I really think that i could have invested the money in a much better manner. You had the courses that you need for the workplace mainly in ur undergrad ... no need for more ... its going to be redundant and not really as useful as u think it will be... dont get me wrong ... its not a bad idea ... im just saying that u should consider an MBA as an option too ...
forensic accounting is really interesting ... depending on the job market ... you certainly will need to be an auditor first to get into forensic investigation but ... a degree is not a bad idea ...
I hope you make the best decision :) I really dont want u to think that a masters is a bad idea ... but ... I might have had a bad experience.
STUDY NOW FOR YOUR CPA !!!
Phllop
offlineMember
My grad accounting courses helped a LOT with CPA studying, I would probs just go accounting if you're only going so you can meet the 150 credit requirement. It will probably help you the most with passing. I don't know much about forensic accounting though so I can't comment too much, just saying what I would do.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
Thanks for the response Aalkukhun and Phlopp. I've considered an MBA but I was dissuaded after a friend of mine, who has her MBA and is about to have a PhD in Business told me that an MBA probably isn't going to do much in my profession.
Therefore I narrowed it down to Accounting and Forensic. Any Forensic Accounting people on here? I was thinking that it would give me a niche, or specialty.
cole713
offlineMember
I have been debating going back to school for Forensic Accounting Masters. I graduated in May 2011 and have one more exam left. I have heard both sides...that it will be a waste of time if I already have the CPA under my belt, and that it is a good idea because it will be a specialty. I also graduated from a small school that no firms recruited from, so I thought it would also help to possibly get recruited by a firm...because sending resumes through job postings online has not been very successful. I think you have to go with what you feel is right for you and stick with it. I just think forensic accounting would be an interesting career.
cole713
offlineMember
I have been debating going back to school for Forensic Accounting Masters. I graduated in May 2011 and have one more exam left. I have heard both sides...that it will be a waste of time if I already have the CPA under my belt, and that it is a good idea because it will be a specialty. I also graduated from a small school that no firms recruited from, so I thought it would also help to possibly get recruited by a firm...because sending resumes through job postings online has not been very successful. I think you have to go with what you feel is right for you and stick with it. I just think forensic accounting would be an interesting career.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
Katfid54 - I dreamed of being a laywer when I was in my teens. However, after 6 years of school I don't think I could even think of enduring another 3 years.
Cole713 - I completely agree with you. It not only sounds interesting, but it doesn't seem that there are many people with a Masters in Forensic Accounting. Seems that this could help me stand out.
katfid54
offlineMember
Yeah, I understand that. I am finishing up my last year of law school right now, but I didn't get a masters. I did, though, work two years after undergrad, so I'd probably be in a similar time-horizon to you. I have really enjoyed law school (although it's hard as balls), and lawyers that "understand math" (as ex-accountants are conventionally pegged) are a pretty rare commodity--although I tell people that I'm not good at math; I'm good at Microsoft Excel.
With the public outcry over Wall Street returns and the highly variable stock market over the past few years, the incidences of moral-outrage begetting legal-outrage begetting white-collar criminal proescutions and shareholder derivative suits will be going hot and heavy. A lawyer that can understand a balance sheet, calculate damages, AND communicate all that information to a jury of individuals with a 6th-grade reading level will be with her weight in gold.
Anyway, that's my pitch. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
katfid54
offlineMember
I'm at the University of Texas.
As for graduates, it really is a "Tale of Two Job Markets." Most schools really inflate their graduate employment data--that information really lacks trustworthiness. However, if you can get into one of the Top 20ish law schools (Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, Virginia, Duke, Berkeley, Cornell, Northwestern, Georgetown, Texas, Vanderbilt, UCLA, USC, Washington U @ St. Louis, Notre Dame), then the job prospects are still really bright. At the top of the list, you can mostly finish anywhere in your class, get a job, and start out at 160k. These jobs (known colloquially to law students as "Big Law" jobs) are the places where the real "legal" action takes place--like the securities litigation and the sexy work done by deal lawyers. Between schools 10-20, if you're in the top 1/3 to top 1/4, you'll get the same type of job as the kids coming out of the Top Ten schools. And, if you have a good undergrad GPA/LSAT score, a number of people get into a school ranked 10-20 with a full ride for the whole three years. People that are able to swing a full ride and end up in the top 1/4 of their class live what we in the business call "The Sweet Life."
After those top 20 schools, the pickings become much slimmer and a lot more regional. For "regional" schools, the top 5% of a class may be able to get pretty good jobs out of school, but the rest of the kids will either be jobless or will have to go work as a district attorney somewhere---it's not the best system.
I do think that accountants are particularly well-suited for law school, though. We spend our entire undergrad careers (and professional careers) learning rules and using logic and analytical reasoning to interpret those rules. That is ALL that law school is. Accordingly, accountants really have a leg up on their counterparts that have undergrad degrees in political science, history, or liberal arts.
makinthemagic
offlineMember
I'd go regular accounting. I'd rather have a general accounting degree that I can use for almost any type of work than a specialty degree that pigeonholes me into one career path.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Kat - Thanks for the information. That makes me leery to go to Law School. The chances of getting into a top 10 school is slim and being jobless after having 100k in Law School loans doesnt sound good. Eek!
@MiniMority - Why do you believe that is better than a graduate degree?
Minimorty
offlineMember
I know a lot of people don't want to admit this, but a Masters degree really is becoming the new bachelors degree. Most job applicants in the financial services industry have a masters degree. Because the economy has been so bad these last several years, a ton of people went back to school because they couldnt find the job they wanted. The market is flooded with candidates with masters. Professional designations set you apart from the crowd. I can tell you from first hand experience that we generally hire candidates with professional designations over candidates with masters degrees. Academia only goes so far. Real world, on the job experience goes much further.
cole713
offlineMember
@minimorty- obviously holding a CFF credential will open more doors than a graduate degree. But you also have to get IN the doors in order to obtain the credential. A graduate degree takes a year and did you look at the eligibility requirements for a CFF?? It's not as though you can get that in a short period. It would be great to have it- but it's not as if it is really an alternative to graduate school (especially if you are trying to go to grad school to earn 150 hours)
Minimorty
offlineMember
@cole - I think too many people are far too short-sighted. Everyone is looking for the quick fix. The quick degree, the quick designation. Being successful doesnt happen overnight. You have to put in the time and effort. If a degree or designation was easy to obtain, it would not be worth very much.
It seems that people think they can go to school, get a couple degrees, maybe pass the CPA exam and expect to be making 100k. YOU NEED REAL EXPERIENCE. You need on the job training and you need to be able to apply what you have learned in an actual, real life setting. There is nothing wrong with taking an entry level job and working your way up after a couple of years. Work experience leads to experience and designations. Designations lead to more opportunities, more experience, and more money. Quick fixes solve nothing.
Minimorty
offlineMember
@Buffalo - I agree to a certain extent and I disagree to a certain extent. While the masters is the new bachelors, I think that not having a masters is easily overcome by work experience and professional designations. Your time is MUCH better spent WORKING for two years than enrolling in a masters program. During those two years of work experience, you are gaining valuable, real work experience. you are actually applying what you have learned in the past. Who is more valuable to an employer after two years: someone who has two years of experience doing the job or a potential employee who learned some stuff about that job during his masters program?
Jeff - another71.com
offlineadmin
Getting a Masters in Accounting is redundant if you have a CPA Certificate.
CPA > MAcc anyway.
I would go the MBA route *if* it's an either/or option.
With that said, you won't get as much out of an MBA straight out of school vs if you waited 5 years or so in the real world.
I needed 11 hours ... worked full time for an accounting firm ... went to night classes ... did my 11 hours and bailed.
You can always start a business and get a "Street MBA". :)
CPA Genie
offlineMember
The truth is that you don't need a Forensic Accounting Degree to do Forensic Accounting work. As long as you have accounting knowledge and CPA, they will train you to do the work.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Minimorty - You also have to remember that I need 150 credits to be able to sit for the CPA. Therefore, I need an extra 30 credit hours anyway. So I could get the Graduate Degree with the extra 30 or just take a bunch of electives.
I feel that my time would be better spent with the masters. The question is Accounting or Forensic. And I will probably go after the designation as well when that time comes.
Minimorty
offlineMember
@Buffalo - What is the degree costing you? Just wondering. I have a bachelors degree and needed 24 units of accounting to sit for the exam. I took a bunch of community college classes, mostly online, and knocked everything out of the way quickly. You have to weight the cost/benefit.
Do you WANT to make a career out of forensic accounting? A few people have pointed out that a Bachelors in accounting, a MAcc, and the CPA license would be really redundant. That being said, if you have no interest in forensics or dont want to pursue that as a career path, it doesnt make sense to get a degree in forensics.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Minimorty - Bachelors cost about $35,000 ... the Masters will cost an additional $15,000.
But remember I need 150 credits. My bachelors degree is 120 credits. Therefore I need an additional 30 credits some way, shape or form. Whether thats through a graduate degree, a double major, or random electives.
With that in mind, I assumed that getting a Graduate degree would be my best course of action given my options. If I could simply take my bachelors and get a CPA, I would do it! But I cant.
Minimorty
offlineMember
Right, but instead of spending an additional $15,000 on a grad degree, you could spend closer to $1,000 to just take additional courses at a community college. I'm just saying that it is an option to consider, I'm not suggesting you do it.
Are you borrowing this money? Paying out of pocket? Help from parents? These all need to be considered. For example, if you are taking on $50k in debt to get your undergrad and masters and you are expecting to land a sweet gig with no work experience, you may want to reconsider. Just make sure you consider all your options, you understand the job market, and you have some sense of what your career focus will be. Again, if you arent interested in forensics or dont want to do that for your career, it doesnt make sense to get a degree in forensics. If you are interested and want to pursue it, thats a different story.
Peanut
onlineMember
@BuffaloBeard, Ugh..I think a lot of us are in the same position as you. I fortunately only needed a few more classes to meet my requirement. I thought the same thing as you, "should I take a bunch of random classes, or take the opportunity to take classes that are useful." At first, I was going to take a bunch of "dummy" classes. In the end, I took classes I thought would be beneficial to my career. Did you look at the difference between the classes you would be taking doing either Accounting or Forensic? The forensic degree might have all general accounting courses you would be taking with either degree--plus more that are specialized. Maybe the forensic degree would benefit you more? If you're going to get your CPA anyway, I wouldn't feel "pigeon holed" if you did choose to gear towards forensics.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Minimorty - Ok, I see what you are saying now.
My parents paid for my first 3 years, and I am paying for my Senior year and extra courses. I will probably have $15-20k of loans when I graduate and enter the workforce. However, I do have a house that is nearly paid off and 2 cars that are paid off so I am in good shape otherwise.
One thing I am finding interesting; I am surveying the local accounting job market and I am seeing a lot of openings but all positions want at least 3 years of experience. How does a recent grad land a new job without any experience?
Minimorty
offlineMember
@Buffalo - Sounds like you are in a position to handle the $15k-$20k in debt (assuming you are able to find a job). I am not saying this is the case with you, but in general I have also noticed a little bit of a disconnect between what jobs recent grads expect to land and what jobs recent grads should actually be looking for. Even though job candidates may have a graduate degree, these candidates are still ENTRY LEVEL employees. As Jeff mentioned above, graduate school generally makes more sense after you have had about 5 years of experience in the real world. If you do undergrad and then grad, you still dont have any work experience, so you need to be looking for entry level positions.
Minimorty
offlineMember
So, I'm assuming you'll be like 22-25 years old, right?
Forensic accounting is pretty broad. Do you want to go into auditing? Tax? Family law? Valuation? Bankruptcy? There are a ton of options out there. It also depends on where you live (city vs. rural). With a masters in forensics an entry level position should get you at least 45k and probably a bit higher. 30k sounds really, really low.
btw - How do you have a house and cars almost paid off? Do you have work experience?
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Peanut - Check out the US database for jobs. The SEC has a TON of Accountant job openings and I was stunned by the pay.
For example, Forensic Accountant positions within the SEC, required 4 years of experience start at $79,000 and go up to over $170,000. 4 years of experience in the public sector will get you about $45-55,000 from what I have seen on Craigslist.
BuffaloBeard
offlineMember
@Minimorty - I will be 25 years old when I graduate with my Masters degree if all goes well.
House - I fell in love with a beautiful woman whose father bought her a house for her 21st birthday. Pretty rad, huh? Well, actually he paid for almost all of it. There is still $20,000 left on the mortgage but thats nothing. And my car is 4 years old so the loan is paid off.
As far as a focus - i'm not sure. I wish I had the answers. This is a lot of information that I didn't expect to have to think about. It's funny how naive we can be at times.
Minimorty
offlineMember
@Buffalo - Good deal! Btw - Your father-in-law (or soon-to-be) might have some decent connections. Networking is the key to success. It's all about who you know. All you need is an opportunity and it will be up to you to make the best of it. Try something out and see if you like it. If you dont like it, move on to the next thing. you'll figure out what you like and dont like pretty quickly. Definitely dont be afraid of entry level positions though. All you need is an in.
cole713
offlineMember
@minimorty- I was not in any way implying that I want a quick fix and a quick name just by getting degrees and the CPA passed. And obviously it's not about getting a name to make the big money right off the bat or else I wouldn't even be thinking about going back to school and spending another year without real experience. I know that it takes starting out entry level and working my way up...but as I said before I graduated from a small school with no recruitment there and for me going to get my Master's may be a chance to get in entry level- on top of actually having a background in Forensic Accounting. I realize that people can work in forensic accounting with just a CPA and a degree but you have to actually get the job first to be able to work your way up...and I have not had any luck with that which is why going back to school has become an option for me in hopes of getting recruited.
cole713
offlineMember
@buffalo- Yes I only have Bachelor's...and it has been difficult. I have not gotten any responses from any resumes I have submitted. I will say that I have not submitted my resume to EVERYTHING possible. I know some people submit, submit, submit....but I chose only the places I really was interested in working at (which I want to start at a public firm and NOT where I am living now). That's one of the reasons why I have applied for Forensic Acct program and hope that it leads somewhere.
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